Jump to content
Jonathan Porter

My Personal Method Of Ferrite Balancing

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, cobill said:

Dave, 

Is this Treasure Talk the source for your chart, and if so, the software update according to ML fixed the ground balance issues...or did it?

"With the update, we have improved the ground tracking so that the detector is much less susceptible to the typical events that will cause the tracking to deviate from the ideal level."

"detecting your pick will still cause an audio response but it won't impact the tracking."

"there will no longer be a need to continually re-ground balance with the ferrite, unless perhaps moving to a completely new area."

https://www.minelab.com/usa/treasure-talk/gpz-7000-ground-tracking-software-update

 

The more I read about GB, the more confused I become! Really appreciate JP's posts.:biggrin:

Bill

Bill,

  The pic was from the Minelab website, just as you show in your link. I agree with what JP says in the beginning of this post :

"I also recommend users adopt the GB configured to their USER button approach and to go into Manual mode when checking deep targets or committing to dig, leaving the GPZ in Semi-Auto will allow the GB to drift either through exposure to the pick whilst digging or just general drift through the coil not moving, either way the GB will be out which is not obvious unless you pump the coil. "
JP

The update seemed to make the detector more stabalized with the semi auto mode in my opinion, as that is what I always use, but I notice it still drifts a little, I will have to rebalance with ferrite maybe every 2-3 hours. But it could just be different soil conditions, EMI (which I notice increases during the day), Saturation, Pick, Coil not moving,  blah, blah blah,  who Knows for sure ???? I get like you, more confused, as more things are introduced....

  One thing I was experiencing a lot on the Yellow T-130 ferrite ring, was it would still sound off a little when balancing to it (It would not dissipate out all the ferrite noise) , then I moved to another Ferrite that was in Minelabs specs, and it works great so far. Just personal experiences, Im sharing...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It really isn’t that complicated. Ferrite balance is performed with the Ferrite, Semi-Auto is preferred because then the ferrite balance can’t shift unless the detector temperature shifts. Ferrite balance is not dependant on ground but instead dependant on the detectors temperature, X signal is in the ground in varying degrees, the detector will react to the X signal if the Ferrite balance has not been performed correctly or if the coil generates signals off the Ferrite that cannot be balanced out. If the Ferrite balance is out the resultant X signal will blend with or elevate ground signals potentially causing spurious indefinable signals and generally make the detector noisier to listen to, all of this will affect depth.

It takes 20 seconds to perform a GOOD ferrite balance, in Normal Ground Type mode the detector reacts to Ferrite signal much more aggressively as it does with ground signals and salt and saturation signals, as such I HIGHLY recommend using Semi-Auto to avoid these things throwing the Ferrite Calibration out.

There will always be a tiny amount of residiual signal off the Ferrite, especially in the very centre most sensitive part of the windings. This is normal behaviour, so long as there is NOT a HUGE or LOUD signal off the Ferrite.

JP

 

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear, now I need a thermometer???

Jonathan, what temp, how much change?

 I don’t think I knew about this...or my little brain leaked....

fred

  • Haha 3
  • Oh my! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still unclear on why auto tracking is not sufficient on the GPZ, especially for milder soils here in the US.

There was discussion in 2015 how it was much faster and more sophisticated than the GPX auto tracker and so should be used, but now it's somehow too slow again after semi auto came out..? My experience has been it tracks fine in my ground and I simply pull the QT trigger if it's taking more than a second or two to catch up to me. I detect pretty fast and it's never slowed me down.

I thought the GPZ was supposed to "remember" the ferrite in any tracking mode? If not, then why use the ferrite at all in auto at all since it'll just be tracked back out a few minutes later?

Seems to me Semi Auto is best used in places with a lot of ferrite component in the ground - like Australia. There aren't a lot of places like that here in the US. Or potentially in places with a lot of salt since JP has said a number of times that salt throws X balance off, but that confuses me too since it looks like salt should be part of the G component of tracking where Semi Auto is the same as Auto anyways and there has never been much talk or definition about G or how exactly salt messes with X balance without being part of X...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Jasong,

   I have been using Auto since the unit has been released and found plenty of gold.  I guess I could have missed stuff, but I would never know.  In Minelab's instructional manual, I'm sure they recommend running in manual.  I found in the manual where Minelab states this -

Quote

Auto ground balance automatically tracks the ground mineralisation levels and adjusts the ground balance as necessary to maintain stability and detection depth. Auto is the recommended setting for Ground Balance Mode

That being said, I tried Semi-Auto a few times in the past and didn't notice much change.  I tried it again today, but believe it or not, it seems to really work well (go figure).  

I ran Semi-Auto all day, used the Ferrite ring twice.  I pumped the coil up and down throughout the day, no real change in threshold.  

Going back to what JP said originally - why can't you just run in manual ground balance all the time, like many would do with fixed ground balance on the GP or GPX units?  I have never went into Manual balance on the GPZ 7000, so I'm clueless on how it performs.  Would you use the Ferrite Ring also in Manual? 

Quote

I also recommend users adopt the GB configured to their USER button approach and to go into Manual mode when checking deep targets or committing to dig, leaving the GPZ in Semi-Auto will allow the GB to drift either through exposure to the pick whilst digging or just general drift through the coil not moving, either way the GB will be out which is not obvious unless you pump the coil. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob, did you try Semi Auto in the same places that you ran Auto in the past without noticing much difference or were they different spots this time? Can you elaborate on the ways you noticed Semi Auto method working better this time? 

Were you in a place with some amount of mineralization or was it fairly mild? Your general part of AZ is so variable in the intensity of ground mineralization that it's hard for me to guess, I've seen the gamut from requiring Difficult at 10 sensitivity to being able to do Normal full bore, all within 5 miles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick-Trak equals Forced Fast GB on both Ferrite/X Balance and G balance simultaneously, so it is not advised to use Quick-Trak unless the Ferrite is present. In Semi Auto Mode Ferrite/X balance equals Locked Ferrite/X balance but slow tracking G balance, hence why I slowly pump the coil after releasing Quick-Trak and why I continue to pump the coils occasionally during detecting sessions because it is slowly tracking the G balance. In SEMI-AUTO MODE Ferrite/X balance is LOCKED!!!

G balance changes often, Ferrite/X balance only changes if any of the following happen, Big temperature change of the electronics when in any mode (Auto, Semi-Auto or Manual), Saturation signal when in Auto Mode, Salt signal when in Auto Mode. When in Semi-Auto Mode Saturation and Salt cannot effect the Ferrite/X balance only the G. When in Manual Mode everything is locked unless Quick-Trak is triggered, however it is strongly advised the Ferrite be present when doing so.

I can’t be any clearer on this subject now, hope this makes sense. Remember in SEMI-AUTO MODE the FERRITE balance is LOCKED and can only change if the temperature of the electronics moves or changes a lot. Usually this happens mostly in winter between first start up and about an hour later as the electronics go from dead cold to operating temperature. In SEMI-AUTO MODE ground cannot effect the Ferrite/X balance only the regular G balance.

JP

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Guys,

   Jasong - Yes, I was in the same area, but not the exact location.  In Semi-Auto the unit seems to run smoother from what  I noticed vs. Auto mode.  I used to always run Auto, but found at times it got noisy even after a ground balance with  the Ferrite. 

JP - No question you are an expert on all this, but I can tell you, it' down right confusing.  You wouldn't believe how many emails I have gotten from this thread, asking me if I really understood all this X-balance, G-balance, temperature change, using the Ferrite or NOT, what mode to be in, and should you use the Ferrrite.  Most of all the customer have stated, "it don't show any of this in the instructional manual?"

I must tell you, the customers that were on fence about buying a GPZ 7000 just jumped back.  Reading this for a new customer, or someone thinking about purchasing is way too confusing.  

I'm real surprised Minelab hasn't clarified any of this.  If it wasn't for you, most of us wouldn't have a clue about all this technical stuff.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jonathan Porter said:

G balance changes often, Ferrite/X balance only changes if any of the following happen, Big temperature change of the electronics when in any mode (Auto, Semi-Auto or Manual), Saturation signal when in Auto Mode, Salt signal when in Auto Mode.

I've seen you say this often. If this is true, how is salt affecting the ferrite balance? Salt is not a ferrite. Salt is a conductor, like gold. So, will gold and other conductors affect the X balance too if salt does?

Also, what I can't wrap my head around is this:

1.) Ferrite is X.

2.) X is in our soils, thus ferrite is also in our soils.

3.) Semi auto tracks to the yellow ferrite presumably because that component isn't in our soils, and we now keep X constant to the ferrite and not our local changing soils.

4.) X continues to change in our soils but our X value in our detector stays steady. IE: not tracking the ferrite in the ground anymore

So, how is that not causing noise as the soil's X component changes yet our detector is staying tracked to the ferrite?

Why not just keep the detector always configured to the ferrite by adding some kind of offset into the firmware if it needs the ferrite data and not our local X soil data?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And …. Saturation only affects X balance, not ground balance. 

And …. Semi Auto locks the X balance when you release the button (I proved this well in my testing) but allows the ground balance to track slowly. 

As an added note, my 14" coil was smoother in Semi Auto, than when I used to always have it set to Auto.  As JP has mentioned in the past, if you don't want to use the Ferrite, then he suggests Auto, but if you use the ferrite, we should lock it in with SemiAuto.

we will figure this out, yet...

As I questioned on a different link, what exactly saturation is …. still has me confused. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Similar Content

    • By G.B.
      https://youtu.be/Kpp_TPnwmdE

    • By PeterInSa
      Currently using an SP01 and matching twin Speakers, volume on the Z is 8 volume on Sp01 around 7.5 if not using the Sp01 Volume on the  Z is 11, with these settings and my hearing am not sure am getting the benefit of the Sp01, so as above would appreciate comments on twin WM12's ( Speakers are high on the Z Harness along with the WM12, the SP01 in the Z Harness backpack) 
      Will look at setting up the SP01 and the Twin Speakers on Margaret's 2300 with a Transmitter/Receiver driving the Sp01.
      Thanks
      Peter
    • By phrunt
      I was very keen to go for a gold detect this weekend, only problem is the weather forecast wasn't really detecting weather, I wanted to go back to the spot I did very well last weekend where I found .865 of a gram  I just had a funny feeling there was more in that hole as I was getting faint signals with the GPZ but at the time I wasn't sure if that was just the hot rocks, this particular spot is full of hot rocks of all shapes and sizes, right down to pea size up to giant bolder.  I was hoping my assumption there might be more gold there would be correct.
      There was quite a bit of snow overnight but the skies had cleared and went nice and blue so I sent JW a text message asking what the weather was doing up his way seeing he lives 10 minutes from where I was going to look for my gold.  He responded it wasn't looking too good so he will decide when I arrive if he wants to go detecting.   Nothing was stopping me however, I had a mission and I was determined to find gold!
      About 10 minutes after I left my house things went downhill with the snow

      Started to get pretty thick, fortunately they'd plowed the road but it was still slowing coming down.
      Then up ahead the traffic was all at a stop, by traffic I mean the one car in front of me 🙂  It was due to a car that thought it would be wise to tow a caravan in the snow.  Not a good idea, the road was icy and slippery.

      Things did not go well for them, they lost control, spun around and their caravan basically exploded.

      Not much left of it.  Further up the road the weather was getting worse, and I'd forgot to put my chains in the car, if it got too bad I'd have to turn back.

      After a bit more driving as I got towards the lake nearer to JW's house the skies cleared and there was no snow up that way.

      I stopped at the shops to get a few things and picked up a tool from the hardware store expecting to have to smash through rock to recover nuggets like JW has been doing.  That seems to be the way nuggets are mostly found at this spot, my nugget in the hole last weekend was a bit unusual.  JW always goes straight to detecting the rock where he's doing very well, 10 or so little nuggets most days.  I got to JW's and he decided the weather was good enough so off we went.  JW went to his rock wall again, that thing just keeps on giving.... and I went to my hole.
      It was not long at all and I had my first nugget, then another.... and another, they just kept coming.  The damp soil I suspect was making them stand out even more, both JW and I have noticed this in the past, they light up in wet soil.

      I had my first 3 within about 30 minutes I would guess... I took my watch off during the virus lock down as I never needed to know the time anymore and I've never put it back on.  I got used to not caring what time it is.  That little guy is 0.034 of a gram, and the 10" X-coil found it with no troubles at all.  I run my GPZ in HY Norrmal, Manual GB with gain on maximum, all else defaults.  I don't bother with the little yellow ferrite ring, I feel it doesn't help at all in our soil.  I don't understand Minelab's decision not to make a small coil, they probably don't even know the full potential of the GPZ on small gold as with a small coil it's absolutely deadly, the tiniest bits very comparable to a high frequency VLF like the Gold Monster.  I think with the 8" coil it will easily match the Gold Monster.  I think they didn't want to take the SDC 2300's market away from the GPZ owners, they'd rather sell them a second detector than a coil - more profit!

      And here is a video of the detector response on that tiny little nugget, insanely sensitive.  I can't wait for my 12x8" and 8" round to arrive, you would think it would not be possible to get more sensitive than the 10".
      This was my first time finding one so tiny with the GPZ, JW does it all the time and I was watching him do it last weekend so I was using that as a learning experience of what to listen for.

      I just kept scraping more off the hole in layers, I was having a bit of trouble with tiny hot rocks but I didn't want to change off HY normal / max gain to calm the hot rocks down so I just kept fishing them out whenever there was one there and throwing them far away, often using the Nox to assist with narrowing their location down.
      During my digging I found a weird little skull, maybe a dinosaur 🙂

      There was other bones right next to my hole too, perhaps an animal had been using my hole as it's dining room.

      The gold didn't stop coming, I've never had a day like this, I had so many bits by now I had lost count, I didn't even bother taking photos as that would waste valuable digging time.  I just kept scraping more away and detecting each layer after removing the hot rocks by using the Equinox with 6" coil and picking out any rock that it detect as a hotrock (-8/-9).... If you've got good gold eyes you may spot the bit of gold in the photo below, I spotted it sitting in my scrape.


      And this was it.

      I got to the point a big rock was in my way so I had to swing around and attack it from the other side where the sticks are

      This side was a bit wild, you can now see how much I've dug out, the original ground layer, it was on a downhill slope.  right up where a tree root was I had a really nice signal with the GPZ, it was too loud so I thought perhaps a bullet or something so I grabbed the Equinox to see what it would come up with, it had no signal.
      I removed a bit more soil then suddenly I had a solid 16.  I used the Equinox to recover the target and to my surprise.........  The biggest nugget I've ever found!!!!!!!!!!
      \
      Oh yea! a beauty.  You'll see up above that my little tiny bottle, it's my emergency bottle that I keep inside the zipped up GPZ cover as I have forgotten to bring a bottle a few times I keep that little guy as my spare.  Fortunately I did as I sure needed it on this day.
      I took the following photo today as I went back today to hunt the spot again, this photo shows exactly where I found the big nugget.

      It was on top of that rock below the tree root.
      I found a few more nuggets, another 4 I think after the big one but I didn't take any photos, it was starting to get dark so I met back up with JW to see how he'd done on his rock wall, he'd got 9 nuggets, not bad! He was impressed with my whopper and my haul, it is a very big nugget for NZ.
      We walked the 20 or so minute hike back to the car but as we got close to the car for some reason I checked my pocket to see if my gold was there, and it wasn't! $#@$#@$#@ My heart stopped! We went into panic mode checking my pockets 20 times and emptying out my backpack, nope! Nowhere, it was very dark now and my phones light wasn't helping much.  We decided rather than walk back with my phone light we'd go back to JW's house and get a torch and come back and look for it, it either had to be on the path we took or any of the last areas we walked at the nugget spot.  We arrived back with the Torch, JW was a lot more confident we'd find it than I was.  He said we'd be best off going back to the spot as it likely fell out of my pocket when I was crouching down packing all my stuff back into my bag.  We retraced our steps back at the nugget spot and within about 10 minutes I spotted it, sitting in the long dead sparse grass!!!  Thank goodness! That was a close call, my best gold day ever and I'd lost it all.
      Now for the weigh in.

      All the little ones, I can't even remember how many, 15  I think it was for 2.113 grams

      And the monster! 4.081 grams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      The total for my best day ever,  6.195 grams!
      JW offered for me to stay at his place but I wanted to go home and show my wife my find, I didn't expect my 9 year old daughter to still be awake as I got home about 9.30pm and her bed time is 8.30 but my wife let her stay up to see my big nugget, she was very excited and shocked to see how big it was.
      I had plans to go back first thing in the morning to start again, this hole had to have more, I dug my last one about 5 minutes before stopping last night so I was sure it wasn't finished.  This time I was going to come more prepared, better pants with a zip up pocket to hold my gold bottle and a bigger white bottle so I can't lose it after the previous scare, a crow bar as we call them or San Angelo bar in America I believe? and a big magnet on a pole to try help with the little hot rocks.  The ground was a bit frozen when I arrived but not too bad.

      The magnet on a stick is cool, and worked well, shrinks down to put in my backpack too, it helped clear up the hot rocks quickly.

      A pretty big strong magnet on it.
      I had to give the area a tidy up and clear all the sticks before starting as I was heading that direction with my digging.


      Doesn't help with these giant hot rocks though, but the crow bar dig them out and moved them for me, I'm certain they mask the gold targets when they're nearby
      A quick video of the Nox on the hot rocks
      It came in handy for giving me an ID on them.
      Day two was going well too, I'd lost count again on how many nuggets only taking photos of the bigger ones.

      Quite meaty!

      And another one!

      This rock even had a little one stuck in it.
      I had to be home by 3pm so I called it quits, JW is still there now, hopefully he finds a big one! 🤞
      So my total for today

      11 Nuggets for 3.310 grams, and my two day total

      9.546 grams, what a weekend! I love the 10" X-coil on the GPZ, what a killer combination.  I'm really excited about the smaller sizes coming (8" and 12x8")
       
    • By fredmason
      I seen this issue on the oz forum...is anyone besides me having a problem with the 12v charger for the gpz?
      I have two- one for my ctx and one for the 7000 and they both behave badly...when I plug one into the 12v outlet in my truck it starts flashing red while charging. The manual says this means there may not be enough battery to pull juice from the truck battery...my truck battery is brand new.
      So, I carry a small invertor and plugged that into the 12v outlet, then the battery charger into the inverter...the charger worked fine but my truck battery was  drawn down and I had to jump it...
      so, the second question is this; does the inverter draw a huge amount of amps to go from 12v to 110v to charge a the zed battery???
      Also, is the sensitivey of the minelab chargers adjustable ????
      thanks
      fred
    • By phrunt
      I have ordered a new size X-coil, it's a 12x8" X-Coil,  It's already in the post however it's delayed in shipping due to international shipping delays the world over.  Hopefully this coil arrives soon. I am very excited about it as I think it will be the perfect size for NZ.
      It's even in NZ's black and white colours.

      This should be good in our rocky terrain on small gold.
       
    • By phrunt
      I haven't had a chance to go prospecting since our lock down ended a few weeks ago, once lock down ended I was busy catching up on everything that couldn't be done in lock down 🙂 NZ has done a stellar job in eradicating the virus so our lives are essentially back to normal now except for no International tourists which in our part of the country are a big part of our economy.  We haven't had any new cases in some time and there is now only one person left in the entire country that is in quarantine with the virus. 

      The one case left is on the North Island, so no problem for me down the bottom of the South Island 🙂  Every morning lately has been a heavy frost so I was intending to do my gold hunt in the afternoon once the ground thaws out.

      This was my yard before I left.  A bit chilly 🙂
      It was good to get out prospecting again, my wife and daughter wanted to tag along as they were going to ride their bikes along the cycle trails in the area so my day was limited, I only had a couple of hours.  We parked up and I walked to my usual spot and showed them where I'd be so they could come back and find me.  My first target was a shotgun pellet, damn it, I'd forgotten they existed, I had a hard enough time remembering how to use my detector it's been so long 🙂
      I was then walking across to the spot I wanted to have a snoop around and on my walk there I got a signal, it wasn't a booming target and it sounded too good to be a shotgun pellet.  I dug the surface away and the signal was still there, looking positive, it was at this point I took a quick video in case I was lucky enough that after only about 15 minutes I had my first nugget.
      I wasn't too sure on this one as the spot where it was located didn't really feel right, not the usual place we'd been finding gold around this spot so I turned the video off and started the recovery, possibly expecting a deep old bullet shell or something.    It was a really scrubby area too, lots of prickle bushes and old sticks everywhere.  In all of my excitement of my first find of the day I didn't even get a photo of the area, but the video shows it.  I had to dig a fair way down to get to my target, It was stuck in some layers of the rock which I had to smash out to get to it.

      A decent size too! woohooo, what a start.  I like when they're big enough my Carrot narrows them down.

      Just after I'd found the nugget I was rechecking the area and heard a bike pull up, it was JW, we hadn't seen each other in some time due to the lock down but he'd been coming to this spot again the last few weeks once lock down ended.  We had a chat then got stuck back into it, he went to his usual spot where he's been doing very well, and I went back exploring the side I've been attacking.
      No good targets for about 40 minutes now then in between some bedrock I had another nice sounding target that survived a few scrapes of the pick, always promising.

      These small coils are just brilliant for our hunting grounds here, the smaller the coil the better, the small 10" X-coil has brought this old hunted out area back to life as you can get into all these little tight spots and it paid off again, the coil only just fit between these rocks too, there is still a lot of ground the 10" is too big for but it does get a majority of it.

      I'm no photographer 🙂 but in the shadow in front of my coil is the dig hole, right between the two rocks.  A bigger coil would have missed this gold.

      The bedrock is shallow here but I have done this ground with the Equinox a few times and missed this piece.  If you look hard you'll see the crack in the bedrock where it was.

      And the nugget, typical sort of nugget for this area, all water worn looking smooth bits even though none of the rocks around the area are rounded water worn rocks.  
      A few more junk targets and my phone dinged, it was my wife saying shes done bike riding and was on her way back to collect me so I walked over to see how JW was doing.  I had heard him banging away at the rock for ages while I was detecting around so I assumed he'd done well.  When I arrived he was digging out a big hole in the bedrock cliff face, all the soil was out of the crack and he was breaking apart the rock with his screw driver and hammer. So far he had one bit of gold but another signal was in there, so we tried to use my Carrot to narrow it down, no luck so he kept smashing away.

      He had created that big hole, the big bit of rock at the bottom of the photo was from the hole, the rest were thrown down the side off the cliff.

      After smashing some more up and trying to find it he still had no luck so we tried the Carrot again,  this time it picked it up, real good. It sure helped speed up the recovery.

      A big one too! Carrot detectable size again.  Unusual to get biggish ones and now we've both got one!
      He checked the hole again, and another signal

      A tiny one!, Rechecked again...... another signal, unbelievable.  A lot more smashing out of the rock and out it pops

      The hole was getting bigger and bigger

      And more kept popping out.  My wife and daughter arrived on their bikes now to collect me so I called them over to see the hole that keeps giving, it still had a signal in it now that we were working on recovering, each target as needing more rock smashed out


      This 10" Coil can really pick up some incredibly small nuggets.
      And they just kept coming, my family were watching on with interest.  More nuggets kept coming out then JW checked the soil and crumbled up rocks that came out of the hole and more signals, all over the place

      Absolutely nuts, what a hole!

      All from that one hole,all were in the rock needing smashed out.  I had a ball helping with that recovery, 13 nuggets at 1.8 grams total weight.  JW said yesterday he found a similar hole on the same cliff face with 10 pieces in it.

      And my total, sorry for the glary photo, was taken at night once I got home, and the houses LED lights mess up photos.  0.865 grams for 2 nuggets, 0.76 of that is the big one.
      I really love the small GPZ X-coils, I can not wait for my 12x8" X-coil to arrive as it may get into the spots the 10" coil can't.
×
×
  • Create New...